I thought he was...FF

Q & A's pertaining to force fetch

I thought he was...FF

Postby casjoker » Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:56 pm

My dog is seven months old. I thought he was FF. I have used a wooden dowel, paint roller, bumpers and frozen ducks during FF. I went through 4 days on the table then moved to the ground. After another four days, he was going hard to bumpers just in front of him, so I moved onto walking fetch. Did that for a few days and he seemed to have the concept. Moved on to force to pile. I am doing it two ways. One is having him at heel and bumpers about 10-25 yards away. The other is with him about ten yards away, facing me with a pile of bumpers 25 yards behind him. Both situations I use back command. When he is facing me, I use a back cast gesture as well. Again, pretty much 100% on both.

So today I am at a club training day. Running three singles in a row, we ran two series. First series he does pretty well. Ran past 1st mark twice (bumper, 30 yards) picked it up the third time, contribute this to new area bunch of dogs and people around etc...next mark (bumper, 60 yards) spot on. Last mark (frozen duck 80-90 yards) spot on.

We get to the next series different field, but marks are pretty much the same distance and sequence. 1st mark (bumper) he goes hard to it, sniffs it and then starts going into a search, runs all over the place in the general area of the bumper, goes behind the blind where the launcher is. I recalled him and sent him again picks up the bumper and brings it back but with zero drive. Pulls the same stunt with the 2nd mark (bumper) but didn't have to be resent, the third mark is the duck and does better, still, searches a little but grabs the duck and brings is back pretty well but not nearly as good as 1st series.

My guess has he only wanted the duck after the 1st series, and that's part of the reason he didn't pick up bumpers. I took him off to the side and did walking fetch and force to pile with bumpers. He did perfectly. I didn't run the third sequence to avoid reinforcing any issues he may develop as a result of not readily picking up bumpers.

Sorry for the long post short version is where have I gone wrong with my FF?

Thanks,
Cory
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Re: I thought he was...FF

Postby Tim Carrion » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:20 am

Don't like "pretty much 100%"

Completed FF is 100%!!

A few thoughts: Many dogs do not automatically make the connection from yard to field work. You need to be prepared to enforce the behavior at 10 or 100yds. Mixing birds and bumpers generally not a good idea during this transition. Have you done stick and/ or collar fetch? Many dogs go through the motions of FF but lack the intensity/immediate response of grapping or picking-up that bumper/bird and it is the intensity that makes or breaks FF.

Tim
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Re: I thought he was...FF

Postby casjoker » Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:45 am

Clarify on the 100%, he always picks up something from the pile. He will occasionally "sample" the pile and pick the one that he seems to prefer not always the one on top of the pile. I have a mixed bag of bumpers in the pile (white, orange, plastic, canvas) should I stick with just one kind in each pile?

We did not do stick fetch just walking. I could clean up the collar part. He does seem to get confused a little with the collar. Sometimes stimulation will result in him sitting rather than fetching. This will happen on occasion with come and heal too. I collar conditioned him on sit so I think he defaults to sit when he gets a little confused.
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Re: I thought he was...FF

Postby Sharon Potter » Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:24 am

Like Tim said, "pretty much 100%" isn't 100%.

The fact that he's shopping the pile says he's not there yet. Fetch means "get something in your mouth NOW", meaning he should grab the first bumper he can get to, and not rummage around to decide which one he likes. That's leaving a decision up to him, and FF is not a democracy and he doesn't have a vote. He should be grabbing for a bumper like a crack addict looking for a fix.

I'd also stick to straight to the pile from your side for now. No point in adding a level of difficulty if he isn't 100% on the less difficult part.
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Re: I thought he was...FF

Postby moscowitz » Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:07 pm

you didn't really do force fetch I think. What did you use ear pinch or collar ?
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Re: I thought he was...FF

Postby casjoker » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:29 pm

Ear pinch exclusively.
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Re: I thought he was...FF

Postby moscowitz » Sun Mar 05, 2017 11:13 pm

If you did ear pinch how did you do walking fetch or even force fetch to the pile. And there is your problem.
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Re: I thought he was...FF

Postby casjoker » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:31 am

I about broke my back on walking fetch, I see your point on pile work. I used 10-minute retriever process and didn't use an e-collar because I read it as more of a suggestion in the book and appeared aimed at dogs with lower drive. I just reread the e-collar portion. The way I read it I need to go back and introduce the e-collar to the FF process. Guessing ear pinch, nick, stop stim when he grabs the bumper? Eventually just use nick with no ear pinch? Continue to extend distances as appropriate for how he is doing.

He does well in the yard and my training area so I figured he had it. Of course, in front of 40 people and a pro trainer he made it pretty clear he didn't...a bit of humble pie never hurts! At least my dog pointed out my faults somewhat early in the process before any bad habits were developed.
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Re: I thought he was...FF

Postby moscowitz » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:42 am

Craig Klien who posts here use e collar for force fetch reach out to him. He's a pain in my ass but I like him. Also Michelle Dunn has an old post - video on force fetch. She's okay but her husband Barry is a great guy. My friend, reach out to her. And remember this is just my opinion. I have never produced an FC/AFC.
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Re: I thought he was...FF

Postby Craig Klein » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:46 pm

-hanks Mike the feeling is mutual lol!

I think your on the right track. Go back to the beginning of FF but use the e-collar. Use light nicks, tap-tap-tap-tap, basically as fast as you can press the nick button until he gets it in his mouth. Then transition to the ground. Then walking fetch. Then F-pile. Typically if the dog has gone through a traditional FF program already this goes really fast, just a different form of pressure.

I personally don't do stick fetch. I've found if you ramp up the e-collar intensity during walking fetch you basically accomplish the same thing. The high intensity becomes the distraction and the dog has to work through it, same as stick fetch.

Feel free to call me 320-597-2729

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